While recently schlepping a new heretical collection of Satanic nonsense book, former pastor turned media darling Rob Bell said on an Oprah Winfrey program recently spoke regarding the church imminently accepting "gay marriage" :
"We're moments away,.. I think culture is already there and the church will continue to be even more irrelevant when it quotes letters from 2,000 years ago as their best defense, when you have in front of you flesh-and-blood people who are your brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles and co-workers and neighbors and they love each other and just want to go through life with someone."
Please don't ignore the fact that Rob Bell denigrated the very word of God word as mere letters from 2000 years ago, it's the best evidence that Rob Bell is not the moral teacher that he claims to be but a sad fallen sinner being used as a tool of damnation by Satan. He needs our prayers, not our anger, no matter how much he works to rile us up.
But he's right, weak, fallen churches are turning their backs on God accepting sin as a sacrament and caving to popular culture rather than bowing to Lord Jesus Christ. So when my bride announced she was going to visit Calvary Chapel Aurora for their Wednesday bible study, "they're speaking on homosexuality" I had a feeling of trepidation. Since the passing of Chuch Smith some Calvary Chapel churches have began to align themselves with the emergent church while Rick Warren begins to pick at the carcass of the rudderless church. I was worried that Rob Bell was right and the message that Pastor Ed at Aurora Calvary had might be an announcement that his church was going to follow the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and turn their backs on God.
I felt such blessed relief when I was able to review the video and see that Pastor Ed and Calvary Aurora stayed true to God and His word. Pastor Ed doesn't like to talk about sin much, I'm not sure why because sin is the entire reason why Jesus came to live among us. But here Pastor Ed pulls no punches, he calls a sin a sin, he calls sinners sinners, and he reminds us that we are all sinners. There's no new age coddling of gays, only God's word and how to treat those that are wrapped up in sin (as we all are at times in our lives)
His exposition of how the claims of the gay community that homosexuality is accepted by God are pure bunk is worth the watch. If your Pastor isn't destroying the arguments of the gay community as Pastor Ed does here, maybe your elders need a chat with your pastor.
The lesson starts at the 34:15 mark
David and Jonathan Were Not Homosexuals (0922) from Calvary Aurora on Vimeo.
Study # 0922 - 1 Samuel 18:1-5
It is amazing to me how conservative Christians have revised the interpretation of many concepts in the Bible just in my lifetime. Growing up evangelical in the 1970's, I never dreamed that I would hear an evangelical or other conservative Christian pastor endorse the idea that the Creation may not have occurred in six literal twenty-four hour days, or that some aspects of evolution may be true, or that the Flood of Noah's day was only a regional flood of the Euphrates River valley, not the entire world.
ReplyDeleteUnimaginable!
If any evangelical pastor had preached these "heresies" in the 70's he would have been run out of his church and denomination. But now these "heresies" are considered acceptable views in mainstream conservative Christianity.
So what is up with the Bible? Why is it that orthodox/conservative Christians must repeatedly update their interpretation of God's "holy, inspired, inerrant, unchanging" Word?? Did God allow the Bible to be written so poorly, so confusingly, that mankind has needed scientists, not theologians, to understand what God really meant to say?
Here are some examples of Hebrew/Christian beliefs based on the literal reading of the Bible that have been revised due to scientific and medical discoveries:
1. Flat earth.
2. The flat earth rests on pillars.
3. The earth has four corners.
4. There is a canopy above the earth called a firmament to which God hung the sun, moon, stars, and planets.
5. The sun revolves around the earth.
6. There are "fountains of the deep" under the earth.
7. There is a layer of water above the firmament.
8. The universe was created in six, literal, twenty-four hour days.
9. All animals and planets were created during those six twenty-four hour days.
10. The universe is 6,000 - 10,000 years old.
11. The entire world was covered by water, even Mt. Everest, during the Great Flood.
12. Noah was able to accommodate 10 million species of animals in his boat.
13. Kangaroos got off of Noah's boat on top of Mt. Ararat (modern day Turkey) after the Flood waters receded, traveled (and swam) thousands of miles to Australia...without leaving one kangaroo skeleton on the continent of Asia.
14. Seizures are caused by demon possession.
Once science and medicine proves the literal reading of the Bible on these issues false, Christians then revise their interpretation of the passage or passages in question and decide (arbitrarily) that the passage in question is speaking "metaphorically" and that previous generations of believers were simply mistaken.
What? Says who?
I am currently in a discussion with a Christian regarding the Ascension story. When I point out to him that if Jesus ascended to heaven at a speed slow enough that his disciples could watch him ascend, Jesus hasn't even made it to the next nearest galaxy, let alone the far reaches of outer space and ultimately heaven.
"You are reading this passage literally and being silly. It is obvious that the author of the passage was speaking metaphorically," says the Christian.
When I ask the same Christian if he believes that the Resurrection account should be read metaphorically his reply is, "Of course not. This account should be understood literally. The Resurrection of Jesus was a real historical event."
???
Dear conservative Christians: Please open your eyes. Instead of repeatedly revising and updating your interpretation of your God's "unchanging" Word, why not just accept the obvious: The Bible is an ancient book full of scientific, medical, historical, and archeological inaccuracies, written by scientifically ignorant, superstitious, ancient peoples. People do not "ascend" into the sky and decomposing dead men do not walk out of their graves to enjoy a broiled fish lunch with their fishing buddies.
Stop basing your life on these fables and legends and accept the findings of modern science and medicine as the basis of your reality. Please.
You're right Gary, People do not "ascend" into the sky and decomposing dead men do not walk out of their graves to enjoy a broiled fish lunch with their fishing buddies" but God does.
DeleteI chose to publish your screed because I need my Christian readers to see where our persecution is coming from. It’s coming from atheists who simply make stuff up or repeat tired old clichés. Here’s Gary who publically claims “Give me good evidence for your belief system and I will examine it with an open mind.” Yet he fails to open his mind. He does open his mouth and sticks his foot squarely in.
1. Flat Earth is not a biblical claim, it was made up by arrogant 18th century atheists such as Edward Gibbon in an attempt to elevate their intellect by supposedly making Christians look stupid. It was never a Christian belief, at the very beginning of St. Thomas Aquinas' 13th century Summa Theologica, this leading Christian thinker writes about the spherical character of the earth. In fact the bible is the first work of literature to claim the earth to claim that the earth is spherical in Isaiah 40:22 centuries before Science caught on. The Flat Earth came from Greek philosophers.
2. The flat earth rests on pillars. Never has that been a Christian belief. Again, we knew in the days of Isaiah long before the advent of modern science that the earth was spherical, I Sam. 2:8 mentions the pillars of the earth and the lord placing the earth on it (note: never said flat either) it was saying that the Earth is the Lord’s to do with as he wants.
3. The Earth has four corners. The fallacy here is the translation of the Hebrew word Kanaph which has been translated as “Borders” (Numbers 15:38) “Four Corners” (Isaiah 11:12) and “ends” (Job 37:3) – what Kanaph really means is “extremities” Seriously – you took phrases that can only be understood by an open mind to mean that the earth is vast and came up with “Flat and square”? Seriously?
4. There is a canopy above the earth called a firmament to which God hung the sun, moon, stars, and planets. Again, another inability to understand the original Hebrew raqiya` which simply means ‘expanse’ which is a pretty good description of the sky, science or not.
5. The sun revolves around the earth. Nowhere in the bible does it teach that. The medieval Roman Catholic Church taught that, please do not confuse Christianity or Judaism with the Roman Catholic Church.
6. There are "fountains of the deep" under the earth. Uhhh yeah! Ever hear of geothermal vents? Geysers, springs? These all occur at the bottom of the ocean. It’s science baby, and a religions document beat Jacques Cousteau to this discovery by 4,500 years.
7. There is a layer of water above the firmament. Clouds? You didn’t know that clouds are water vapor? The bible does.
Delete8. The universe was created in six, literal, twenty-four hour days. The word for day in Hebrew was Yowm which can mean day, or lifetime, or division of time, or time period. That’s why there’s several (not one) school of thought on creation. Then there’s the thought that once there was nothing and suddenly BANG! There was Everything! For no reason! (No wait, that’s science’s explanation, pardon me)
9. All animals and planets were created during those six twenty-four hour days. This will blow your mind: Plants weren’t created then. It says so in the bible.
10. The universe is 6,000 - 10,000 years old. How old is it? Tell me. Science has changed its mind at least 6 times in my lifetime, young earth believers haven’t changed their mind once. The real question is – what does the age of the universe have to do with your salvation? The answer is “nothing”
11. The entire world was covered by water, even Mt. Everest, during the Great Flood. Mt. Everest was not mentioned in the bible. And by the way, every ancient culture on earth has a flood story, surely you’re heard of Gilgamesh? Many African cultures have an oral tradition of a flood myth including the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mandin, and Yoruba peoples. In India Puluga, the creator god in the religion of the indigenous inhabitants of the Andaman Islands, sends a devastating flood to punish people who have forgotten his commands. Only four people survive this flood: two men and two women. The list of ancient people who have flood myths is incredible, Korea tells the story of Mokoryung, Malaysian tells us of Temian, Australian aborigines tell of the flood if Tiddalik, in Polynesia there’s multiple stories. Ancient tribes up and down the North and South American continents including the Hopi and Inca all have stories of the flood. All are similar, God warned them to clean up their act, they didn’t, bang! Flood! If you really had an open mind you’d be thinking – hey there’s something here.
12. Noah was able to accommodate 10 million species of animals in his boat. It never said how many animals were on the boat, but one thing I can guarantee you – they weren’t all in pairs.
13. Kangaroos got off of Noah's boat on top of Mt. Ararat (modern day Turkey) after the Flood waters receded, traveled (and swam) thousands of miles to Australia...without leaving one kangaroo skeleton on the continent of Asia. Kangaroos are not mentioned in the bible. What verse did you see Kangaroos?
14. Seizures are caused by demon possession. SOME Seizures are caused by demon possession. You got the open mind, prove that they’re not.
I have to admit, I find it mildly humorous that there’s a Christian who actually engages in your argument about the assention. There’s nothing metaphorical about it, and trying to time the trip like you’re doing is just plain silly. You’re arguing like you know exactly where heaven is. In Isaiah 57:15 we know exactly where God resides: in eternity. God is not constrained to this tiny constrained little 3 dimensional ball of rock that you are basing all of your sad little arguments on. Open your mind to something that’s more complex than you
Dear Evangelical Atheists: Please open your eyes. Instead of arguing out of ignorance, learn a little about what you’re complaining about. The bible is an ancient book of beautiful poetry, timeless advise, scientific fact, written over a period of roughly 2,000 years by 40 different authors from three continents, who wrote in three different languages and never once does it contradict itself. What it does do is hold up a mirror to the sinful, hate filled nature of man, and offers redemption.
Stop basing your life on the whims of unsettled science which changes which ever way the political winds blow and open your mind to the reality that there’s something greater out there than you. Please.
I did some reading on the Flood myths. Based on what I read, there are several cultures that have stories about catastrophic floods, but is that proof of Noah's Flood.
DeleteIf you can show me that ancient peoples in all the continents have ancient flood stories that describe eight people who were saved by getting into a boat, along with a pair of every species of animal on the earth, and everyone else on earth died...I will be a believer.
No you won't. You're not open minded enough. You're basing Christianity on your personal acceptance of the Flood. Tell me - what portion of your salvation relies on the Flood?
DeleteThe proper response to the scriptures is "Jesus said it was true, he taught lessons from it including the Flood. Therefore it is true." THAT is what being a believer is all about.
Have you considered, Doug, that Jesus made mistakes?
DeleteFor instance, Jesus believed that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. Modern writing analysis proves he didn't. Just because Jesus believed in a Great Flood, doesn't make it true.
Jesus was a great man, but still a man, and men make mistakes.
No, never for a moment did I ever believe that Jesus made mistakes, even at my lowest, when I was spiritually as low as you did I ever feel that.
DeleteModern writing analysis has discounted assistants too? Just because Moses had did not hold the scribe does not mean he wasn't the author. Even the holiest man to the modern left, Barack Obama, used assistants to write his story.
And I find it very bizarre that you, an Evangelical Atheist, is fooling yourself and trying to placate me by calling Jesus a "great man". A man who said the things he said is not a "great man". Here's a guy who walked around Judea claiming not only to be the son of God but God in the flesh. You now have a choice - he's either a complete and utter lunatic or he truly is God. You can't see what he said and what he did and come up with this lame "great man" nonsense. He's either a madman, Satan incarnate, or God. You can either spit on him, kill him as a demon or fall at his feet and worship him as the Son of the Living God. He didn't give you an option to do otherwise
So don't insult me or patronize me with your "great man" babble. Be honest. Either tell me he was a lunatic, tell me he was a demon, or tell me he was God. For once in this exchange attempt to be honest with yourself.
If you look at my original comment, I said "Hebrew/Christian" beliefs. The early followers of Yahweh (the Jewish and Christian god), in this situation, the early Hebrews, believed that the world was flat as described in numerous locations in the Old Testament. It wasn't until the 3rd century BC that (pagan) Greeks, using scientific methods, discovered that the earth is a sphere. Again, the followers of the Bible learning from science, and not the other way around. That shouldn't be the way it happens with an "all-knowing, inerrant" holy book.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, if you had read my response to you, I clearly cited the biblical passage to you that described the earth as spherical 500 years before the Greek philosophers came up with the idea. I'm thinking that they read the ancient Hebrew text of Isaiah and that's where the Greeks got the idea from. Isaiah was very popular. Prove me wrong.
DeleteHowever it's very interesting chatting with you, I'd like to see your articles that describe the failures of Islam, Wicca, Mormonism, 7th Day Adventist, Satanists, and the Roman Catholic Church. You do have targets other than Christians and Jews don't you?
The point about the kangaroos is this: If every species of animal that exists today is descended from the animals on the ark, how is it that kangaroos exist? If kangaroos were on the ark, we should find skeletons of them in between Mr. Ararat in Turkey and their current home range in Australia. The problem is, we don't. It is as if kangaroos have only existed (or evolved) on the continent of Australia.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the story of Gilgamesh, you do realize that this story was written at least one hundred years before the story in Genesis was written. It is a Babylonian story, and it only involves a flood of the Euphrates River Valley. Whoever wrote Genesis simply plagiarized the Babylonian story and tweaked it a little for his Hebrew readership.
The bible does not say "Every species of animal that exists" however it does say "every species of animal" big difference. Don't go putting words in God's mouth:
DeleteDo not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar. (Proverbs 30:6)
That passage and another passage (Revelation 22:19) make it clear to a believer in the truth that the Bible is not something to be tampered with, which is why I rail on Rob Bell and Eugene Peterson
MY proof for the accuracy of the Noah story is that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ believed in it. And Christ Jesus makes a very good point, the point is not the flood, but the behavior of mankind BEFORE the flood. When He talks about rampant sin He says "Just as in the days of Noah"
You ask me for proof earlier - now prove that someone actually plagiarized the epic of Gilgamesh and wrote it as the story of Noah.
Have you actually read the story of Gilgamesh? Have you actually read Genesis 5 through Genesis 10 or are you depending on someone else's description? I have both several times. Gilgamesh is nothing like the story of Noah, it's actually quite a weird story. However until you come up with some actual physical proof I have to say that the flood of Gilgamesh was plagiarized from Noah and spiced up (a lot!) to fit into the Babylonians polytheistic pagan religion, because seriously - it's a very weird story. In Gilgamesh, his 'god' was actually in the 'ark' and almost starved to death. In the words of the Hulk: "Puny gods"
I've also noticed how you conveniently ignored the fact that this "story" is global, that every ancient (predeluvian) civilization has a flood epic. Is there a reason you chose to ignore this fact?
In summation, the fate of antideluvian kangaroos have nothing to do with my salvation or yours.
Doug,
ReplyDeleteCan you provide any evidence that any "true" Christian believed that the earth orbits the sun prior to Copernicus?
I'm sorry, I'm having problems understanding why you are focusing on the Copernican system, in fact it's a great argument against the ridiculous statement "The science is settled" - if it's settled, it's not science. The same thing that happened to Copernicus and Galileo is happening now to people who chose to demand that science take a second look at the theory of Global Warming. They're called deniers, their lives are threatened, and all they're doing is asking science to do what science is - look at something again and again (especially when the data has been tampered with).
DeleteThe Ptolemaic system (geocentric) was the "official" scientific method of looking at the universe in the accepted realm of science from 150 AD to the 16th Century, church or no church. for 17 centuries the "science was settled" and Copernicus rocked the boat. He was a denier, and if he were here today looking at the data that Dr. Michael Mann corrupted to come up with his theory of Man Made Global Warming and said "this is wrong" he would be threatened with the death penalty from many leading (and mostly atheist) Global Warming advocates such as Prof. Richard Parncutt.
Stop blaming Christians for the sins of Science, EVERYONE believed that the earth orbited the sun, because the "science was settled". And stop blaming Christians for the sins of the Roman Catholic Church, God fearing Christians are the target of the Roman Catholic Church as set forth in the council of Trent. If you want to blame anyone blame Claudius Ptolemy who came up with the idea of Heliocentricism and published in his Almagest.
And in the end, what does this have to do with your salvation? Does it prepare you to stand before the judgement throne of God? I too am a sinner, just like Copernicus, just like you. I deserve to be squashed like a bug for my sinful life, however I have an advocate who will stand by me at my trial. He's my lord and master, the One who adopted me as his brother, and his Dad is the judge.
I don't remember saying "the science is settled". If I did, I apologize.
DeleteScience is NEVER settled. Science has theories. Even the "Law" of Gravity is just a theory. There are no absolute, inerrant beliefs in science. All theories are open to investigation, and if new evidence proves a current theory incorrect, the theory is either modified or completely abandoned. That is what is great about science. We are always learning and discovering.
"The Ptolemaic system (geocentric) was the "official" scientific method of looking at the universe in the accepted realm of science from 150 AD to the 16th Century"
Was this belief based on science of based on the Christian belief in the literal interpretation of the Bible such as the statement in the OT that God made the sun "stand still" so that Joshua could have a few more hours to win his battle?
There is no "salvation", Doug. That is what I am trying to help you see. There is no invisible Boogeyman hovering over the earth ready to hurl the majority of mankind into his divine torture pit for thought crimes (not believing in him). It is a superstition invented by ancient, scientifically ignorant, superstitious peoples.
Why are you basing the Ptolemaic system on the bible? I has NOTHING to do with Judaism. Nothing. It was written by the enemies of the Jews. You need to take a few deep breaths
DeleteAnd by the way, your belief that there is no salvation is your ONLY hope.
Sorry 'bout that lad.
Doug: I am your friend not your enemy.
ReplyDeleteThose of us who were raised fundamentalist/evangelical/orthodox Christian have been sold a large horse cart of snake oil. The Bible is simply and only a collection of supernatural nonsense written my ancient, superstitious, middle eastern goat herders. It isn't true.
We have been deceived, my friend. Open your eyes to the real truth.
Calling my core beliefs snake oil and the very word of God "nonsense" is not an act of friendship. I will let you know when you have the right to call me friend. Open your eyes to the truth of Lord Jesus Christ.
DeleteJesus was a great man. But Jesus is dead, Doug. The belief that he was reanimated three days after his death is based on nothing more than superstition, assumptions, and second century hearsay. It isn't true. We have been deceived.
DeleteJesus was both God and man. You claim his resurection is based on nothing more than superstition, assumptions, and second century hear say. The fact is - He is God, He rose from the dead, He spoke to over 500 people after His resurrection, and you cannot prove otherwise other than to repeat tired old screeds that permeate the internet.
DeleteAnd if you're as nice as you say you are, prove it. I'm still waiting for an apology for your insulting my core beliefs.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteNo, that's not an apology. Try again.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteSorry, you do not come on to my blog, disrespect me and my readers then demand answers to silly questions when you, in return refuse to answer legitimate questions. Does the term bitbucket mean anything to you? Because you're in it.
Delete